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About the guest
David Plink is the CEO of the Top Employers Institute, with over 25 years of experience in the HR industry. He holds a Master's degree from the University of Leiden and an MBA from Berkeley. Recognized for his expertise in data-driven HR practices and fostering inclusive workplace environments, Plink has led the certification of over 2,300 organizations globally, impacting the working conditions of more than 13 million employees. Learn more about him on his expert page.
Summary
In this episode recorded live at EODF 2024 in Milan, we sit down with David Plink, CEO of the Top Employers Institute, for a raw and inspiring conversation on what it really takes to lead lasting organizational change.
Hosted by Tim Brewer and Damian Bramanis, David reflects on his 16-year journey leading a global certification body across 30+ nationalities—from recovering after a life-changing illness to transforming a near-bankrupt company into a purpose-driven global movement.
He shares candid stories and hard-won insights, including:
⚖️ Three essential dilemmas every leader faces in org design:
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People follow strategy vs. People first
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Big bang vs. Slow burn change
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Soft approach vs. Ripping off the bandaid
🌍 Why purpose and people development are non-negotiables in modern leadership
💬 How clear communication and embracing uncertainty build safety for change
🧭 Why “clarity is kindness” and sometimes the bravest choice is the hardest one
This episode is a masterclass in empathetic leadership, adaptive strategy, and organizational courage. Whether you’re a CEO, HR leader, or change agent—this one will stay with you.
🎧 Listen now to rethink how you lead through complexity.
Show Notes
https://www.top-employers.com/us/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Damian Bramanis: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. Today we are coming to you from Milan at the EODF 2024 conference, which is very exciting. And we have David Plink here who is the CEO of the Top Employers Institute.
[00:00:15] Tim Brewer: David, it's wonderful to have you on the Org Design Podcast. Damian Bramanis joining us again. Sometimes we've got Amy, sometimes we've got Damian and me, Tim Brewer joining you from the episode. Like we said, it's my first time. I'm not very traveled in Europe, and so it's my first time in Italy. I'm super excited by that. What do I need to know about Europe that you can teach me having experience and grown up here?
[00:00:43] David Plink: I think the first thing to realize about Europe, it's not one country. I can't speak to the whole continent. It's very diverse and that's what I like about living in Europe, that you can travel, just a hundred kilometers and you find different cultures, different languages, different viewpoints, and I think the diversity makes Europe so interesting. So today we're in Milan which is completely different from the south of Italy. People in south of Italy typically don't necessarily like people from Milan, so that's something that I picked up. But every region, every city, every area has its distinct qualities and character. That's what I love about Europe.
[00:01:17] Damian Bramanis: So David you've just come from speaking at EODF and really enjoyed your presentation and one of the things that I found fascinating was that you started with a number of dilemmas in org design. And in the wrap up part of that session, there seemed to be one of those dilemmas which got more attention than all of the others.
And I thought that one was around, the dilemma of people follow strategy versus people first. And so do you wanna talk to us a little bit about what that means and why it's a dilemma?
[00:01:47] David Plink: Yeah, absolutely. So what we talked about in general, and the question that I also received from EODF is to tell a little bit about my experiences as a business leader going through an organizational change project.
And as in everything that we do as a company and as I do as a person I learn from these things because we make a lot of mistakes invariably. And I wouldn't say that this dilemma is based on mistakes, but I do think, it's definitely a philosophy difference where in, in some of these org design processes, you really focus on kind of the functionality, the technical part and say, okay, we have a strategy, and the people follow that.
From an outside perspective, that works really well. So definitely working with consultants that don't know the people in the organization that works really well. Compare that to the actual organization already exists, so you have talent in certain roles, that are contributing to making the company a successful company, but they may not necessarily fit completely in their tasks and their personality in the role that you envision.
So that dilemma of working with people to, to guide that strategy or around people and say, okay, "I got this amazing talent. It's not entirely fit with what we decided but we're gonna make it work anyway". Typically, making it work anyway doesn't work. so that was the dilemma that I faced throughout that period. How do you navigate around personal relationships and respect and, yeah, just the value of that people have delivered over time, and how does it fit into the future strategy?
It's a complicated one, and I'll probably keep on learning on that every day. And I'll probably make my fair share of mistakes also in the future still. But it's definitely something that I took away from that process.
[00:03:23] Tim Brewer: David, tell us a little bit about your history. What does your organization do? What countries does it run in? How big is it? Just to give our listeners a bit of an understanding of what your are dealing with in your leadership role?
[00:03:35] David Plink: Yeah, so the Top Employers Institute is a company that supports at the moment largely big organizations in their quest to become a good employer, in their quest to become a top employer. And we support those companies with data insights across the HR domain. We certify them based on what they offer their people, and that's essentially what we do.
So a combination of certification, data, HR insights to support their people being the best they can be. It's always focused on people development. And if you look at the organization, currently it's nearly 250 people and it's really around the world. So we have our headquarters in Amsterdam, that's about a third of our workforce that is associated with that region, not necessarily working in Amsterdam every day.
And then we have clusters of people scattered around the world, some working more in an office-based environment, some working remotely. And those are based out of five locations around Europe in the US, Brazil, South Africa, Singapore, and China. So if you take that all together, it's an interesting melting pot of cultures, over 30 nationalities, people from all generations collaborating to improve the world of work.
So that's the setup against which we work. We have a lot of people with HR backgrounds, we have a lot of people with commercial backgrounds and encouraging companies to join the program. And it's an eclectic mix of people, which I love working with.
[00:04:56] Damian Bramanis: And as, as CEO of the Top Employers Institute, love to learn about your story of what motivated you to get to this point. What is it that's driven you to take this career path and take this journey?
[00:05:07] David Plink: That decision to join the company goes back to 2007. And I came from a career mostly focused on employer branding, both from the creative advertising side as well as the media side. And I'd done that for about a decade in various roles, mostly sales, marketing, leadership roles. And my world came to a shrieking standstill because I fell ill. So I got an autoimmune disease called chronic inflammatory demyelinating poly neuropathy, and that actually paralyzed me. So, I was in a new role in a new company and I was yeah, just laying flat on my back. Had three kids under three and I was out of the workforce for seven, eight months. I was hospitalized and in rehab centers for three, four months, and at the time, I wasn't able to recognize that yet, but it was a blessing in a sense that it helped me just refocus on what I really want. And I didn't like the job that I was in at the time. I didn't fit with the culture necessarily, and it helped me to kinda recalibrate.
So the moment I got back on my feet, I was visited by a former colleague who said, "Hey, got a nice job for you, Chief Operations Officer at this company, la la la". And I was like, you just mentioned traveling the world. See, you see that I traveled mostly by ambulance over the past three months, so I'm not sure whether you had the right person in front of you. And he said, "no you'll be fine. And it's gonna work out". And it in fact did. The moment I got on back on my feet, I started to reintegrate the company I worked for. And the moment that I felt like, "Hey, wait a second, I can do this". Albeit with a couple of limitations that, disappeared over time, but at the time they were there, it's I can join that company.
Within a couple of months I resigned and I joined the Top Employers Institute. And I joined the company after having worked for three other organizations large, listed firms. And I wanted to have more impact, and that was the opportunity I saw at Top Employers Institute to really have an impact on the world of work in a smaller scale company. So at the time, we were 40 people scrambling by, I would say technically bankrupt when I joined the company. So it was not necessarily in a good shape.
Three weeks or so after I joined the company, Lehman Brothers fell, and in that wave, all the other companies followed with the financial crisis. So, it was at that time to become an entrepreneur and to join a company as one of their shareholders. But we got through that and what I focused on in the years thereafter, first as a Chief Operations Officer and from 2012 as a Chief Executive Officer, was really to become that purpose driven company where we can in fact change the world a little bit and make it a better place, particularly from the employment angle. So that's been my driving force and been doing this for over 16 years now. And I truly enjoy this every day because it's rewarding to inspire people within our company, outside our company with what we do. And for me, I needed that lying on my back, not being able to do much besides think and watch Sopranos, which was also fun. But that was basically what I did. Rethink my path in life and embrace what I couldn't do and focus on what I could.
[00:08:11] Damian Bramanis: Yeah. It's interesting you talk about changing the world of work because I think that's what's brought a lot of people here to EODF, is how can we each contribute in our own way to, to improve the world of work. Tell us a little bit about what that means to you?
[00:08:27] David Plink: Yeah. To me it, it's really focused on people development. I have a strong belief in my personal values, in the way I raise my kids, in the way I look at the world, that everyone has the potential to develop.
So, doesn't matter in which position you are, where in the hierarchy in a company you sit, you have the potential, and I think also the desire to develop, but sometimes a desire needs to be fueled. There needs to be a spark to let it burn, but it is there. That's what I truly believe, that everyone has the opportunity to develop themselves to be a better version of themselves.
So that's where it starts for me on a small level, and I think as employers, we have the ability, but also the moral obligation to create those circumstances, to grow, to design your organization, in the spirit of what the conversation today to design your organization in such a way that people can actually see a path for themselves, for their own development. That they are held accountable for what they're responsible for, and that they are in fact growing through that accountability.
But also are given the opportunities to grow and our methodology as a company within the Top Employers Institute, is really focused on that people development. So from workforce planning, onboarding, the whole recruiting process, the learning and development, leadership development, performance management, everything you create in the culture the remuneration, everything around that is focused on figuring out which companies offer the best conditions for their people to thrive in.
So, for me, it revolves around personal development.
[00:09:51] Damian Bramanis: Yeah. And you say as a moral obligation. People often talk about this kind of obligation to investors or this obligation to shareholders, that it's about creating value, but there is truly in every organization, a moral obligation to the people in that organization to make their lives better as well. And so that's a really important part of org design that, that we all share.
Your presentation today was fascinating. I really enjoyed it and we could tell in the room that everyone else was on their edge of their seats as well. Do you wanna talk us through the three dilemmas that you mentioned and briefly what they mean?
[00:10:25] David Plink: Yeah, I think the first one we touched on already is the kind of the people follow strategy versus people first. So constantly making the choices that fit with the strategy while respecting the individual and their contributions past, present, and future. So I think that was one that I didn't always navigate completely well. So I did move, kinda circumvent certain issues, kept it in place and had to address them afterwards. So if I would start a reorganization of the company right now, I would still say, oh, people follow strategy. But I know I will fall in the pitfall as well of, okay, how do we navigate this specific situation? So I think that's always there. There's no. Magic bullet. Unfortunately no silver bullet to fix that. But it's it's definitely always present.
Then the second dilemma that we faced was the do you go for the big bang and organize, reorganize in one go or do you go for a slow burn? And I think over time I learned to be much more able to look at the organizational design and the businesses itself in a more agile way. And I think the slow burn where you adjust over time and you make that change part of the culture. So it's not necessarily "oh, it's always changed and it's scary".
No, it is normal that we always evolve, we always take step steps to improve the organization. I think that's very important. So the Big Bang where you label a project and we have a big fancy name for it often in Latin or whatever. That's, I don't think I would do the same again. Just really making sure that evolution takes place on an ongoing basis, in a way that people can still rely on the safety of the company and their, yeah, their ability to work for the company that's not, like their jobs at threat the whole time? No, we're constantly evolving and improving. I think that's an important one.
Now the third one is the soft approach when you talk about people decisions or rip off the bandaid. And I, for a long time in my role and career, I've been reluctant to rip off the bandaid. I've been driven more by kind of the fear for the consequences thereof than by the opportunities it presents. So I think the soft approach, seems to be working well in the short term, but in the long term, ripping off the bandaid every now and again is a necessity and I truly believe that clarity is kindness.
Whereas where I thought that the soft approach was the kinder approach, but in actually in reality, ripping off the bandaid sometimes actually very often is the way to go, but it hurts and it's not fun to do. So
[00:13:01] Damian Bramanis: yeah,
[00:13:02] David Plink: It'll always be part of me to, to to navigate that.
[00:13:06] Tim Brewer: I'd love to dig into the second juxtaposition. Is that the right dilemma? Dilemma which is big bang or slow burn. And you talked before about having a good org design culture or good change culture that felt safe and expected change rather than furiously fought against it.
what do you think for the leaders sitting out there, that have been thinking the same thing. "Hey, I can't just do one big reorg every three years, and that be okay. The world is moving too fast. Too many things are going on. We can't keep up. We're not either performing or we're seeing symptoms occur in our organization".
How did you approach, or how do you think about helping other leaders when you're talking to them? Go from a fear, a high fear culture that's oh, you are like all, anyone that talks to you about your job, You're like, staying up at night imagining me, blown sideways or cut outta the organization unexpectedly are more impacting your long-term job prospects versus an organization that's " yeah, let's talk about if we're not organized, structured correctly in our team. How do we improve that? What skills are we missing? What people?", How do you think about what a safe organization looks like for change? And are there any practical tips you can give people to h elp them build safe environments for change.
[00:14:26] David Plink: I think the first part comes with communication to, to mention that is the approach.
So if there's clarity around the path you're on and saying, Hey, there can be changes over time. And sometimes they come faster than we expect. Sometimes we we don't see 'em coming for a while, but there's always an opportunity for change. And that can be that can also be driven by people themselves.
So if they come up with the initiatives, usually those are better initiatives than come from the top. That's at least my experience, the moment I start meddling in details. Typically I screw it up so I know that for myself. So if you create an open communication culture around the necessity to change, the necessity to develop as a company, I think that's the first part that really helps.
Secondly, I think it also helps to be open about the fact that we don't know it all. Just, "Hey, we're doing this as good as we can. But sometimes we make wrong choices and then we learn from that". But also just recognizing the fact that we don't know it all and we don't have to just look for the leadership to say, "okay, where's the solution?" This is not of today. We need to have a very open listening culture where we engage with people to come up with the solutions and be open about the fact that sometimes it doesn't work.
[00:15:34] Tim Brewer: Yeah.
[00:15:35] Damian Bramanis: I actually have a question on the third dilemma, and I know very little about surfing, but the one thing I do know about surfing is that you're meant to lean in.
And the third dilemma you talked about is ripping off the bandaid. versus the softly approach. And one thing that we call that is is leaning into it. So if there's something difficult or something challenging, or something that you need to address, don't be softly and put it off and hold off.
But it's something that, it's really important to approach those conversations quickly and make sure that you are open and honest and authentic, but you need to communicate more clearly there and you need to make sure that you are. You focus more on that? is that something that you think is counter-cultural for people or something that's difficult for someone who's got a good leadership or good organizational culture? And why do you think that we often find it difficult to rip off the bandaid?
[00:16:30] David Plink: I think as people we are used to and prefer to live in herds, so we like to surround ourselves by people. We've seen that also during Covid that sure we can do a lot of work remotely and behind our screens.
But on a conference like we're at today, we love engaging with people. We love shaking their hands and hugging the people that we know before and then having a conversation. So we are social animals. So I think ripping off the bandaid, jeopardizes that connection, particularly if that's with somebody you worked with for a long time that you have, yeah, you have built a connection with.
So I think that is, at least in my personal experience, something that withholds me sometimes. But then, yeah, again, clarity is kindness. You're kinder if you actually are open about the things that are not working or you foresee not working going forward. The real soft approach is actually to be hard on the matter and kind to the person.
But it's a continuous dilemma. We all like to be appreciated and liked and respected, and if you jeopardize that by telling somebody the things as it is, it's hard. So I think it's a good dilemma to have because it shows us that we have compassion and that we think about the other and that we take these steps deliberately and with yeah, with a carefulness that a relationship deserves.
[00:17:50] Damian Bramanis: One of the pieces of advice you gave at the end of your presentation, you said there's not the wrong solution it all depends on timing. And what I took from that is that a reasonable person could, two reasonable people could come up with quite different answers, but person A's answer might be the best one right now, and Person B's might be the best one later on. How do you approach that from a cultural point of view, and how do you think about that in, in making decisions and involving others?
[00:18:19] David Plink: Yeah, so I do, I truly believe that if you look at the organizational design toolbox, you can, there, there's a lot of tools and some apply to companies right now and some do not. They may apply in the future. So I think also there it's a sense of, finding the fit with the company, finding the fit with the culture and be open about that. Say for instance, in our case, I can see that we went from a, a beautiful kind of mix of all kinds of organizational design types at the same time. So that didn't necessarily work, but it was a beautiful mix. We had geographic, matrix, we had functional, we had it all together and we chose to go for a more functional approach.
Now, what we see today is that, at times we work too much in silos, although we had the best intentions and we have good results based on what we implemented four or five years ago, I know it's gonna need to change. So we know, I know we have to find new ways of organizing our organization going forward to, to meet the new requirements.
There's also a different size of the company, we doubled in size over that same timeframe. So, I think being open about that and saying, "Hey, we chose this direction and now we're gonna go exactly the opposite direction. And that is okay because we're a different company now". So again, being open about it and, being clear about it. So if you just not address the fact that it was, that you made a different choice four years ago than you'd take today, then people will know there's a collective history in the company. Even company, even people that didn't work at the company at the time will know that we made a decision that is diametrically opposed to what we did then.
So make that clear and say, "Hey, that worked, then this works now". Open, transparent and open for questions also, be challenged on it because people will challenge you anyway, but it's much easier if they do in your presence, than behind your back.
[00:20:07] Damian Bramanis: It reminds me, a CEO from a few years ago would always offer a bottle of red wine to who could ever ask the hardest question. And so it would encourage people to, to challenge the CEO and challenge the direction in a way that shows openness and transparency and a willingness to communicate, which I found really inspiring.
[00:20:25] David Plink: Yeah. It's a nice example just to add some playfulness because that's also something that I keep on coming back on in conversation within the company and outside the company is, "Hey, we're only humans. Let's have a little bit of fun along the way" and little give things like gimmicks with a bottle of wine or whatever you do. Don't take ourselves too serious. We're just a lot of people around, around this world having a good time and trying to have a good time as well. So I think we're in a luxurious position here around this table being in a very civilized place, country, part of the world.
So we don't struggle with a lot of struggles people face day to day. And we have a responsibility in that, to make sure that we increase the circumstances and the wealth around the world. But at the same time, let's not take ourselves too serious. We're only human.
[00:21:08] Damian Bramanis: What a great place to end the podcast on. I really really enjoyed your words there, I think there's a lot that people can learn. If people are interested in learning more or about the things you've spoken about today, what's the best way for them to learn more or get in touch?
[00:21:22] David Plink: Getting in touch. The easiest way is just for, through LinkedIn, just send me a a connection request and I always follow up on that. We can have a conversation. We can, yeah. Have a debate. I love that. If you wanna know, if anyone wants to know more about our company top-employers.com, that's the place to, to find more information about. The program that we run and the benefits that our clients derive from that.
So very open to have that conversation as well and to see whether it fits for some of the companies that are listening to to this podcast.
[00:21:48] Tim Brewer: Awesome. David, thank you so much for joining us today at EODF in Milan. It's been a pleasure having you on the show and getting to hear your keynote this morning.
Enjoy the rest of the conference. Damian, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:22:01] Damian Bramanis: Thank you, Tim.
[00:22:03] Tim Brewer: And we'll sign off for another edition of the Org Design Podcast.
[00:22:06] Damian Bramanis: Great. Woo.
[00:22:07] David Plink: Thank you so much.
Functionly empowers organizations to navigate the complexities of organizational design by providing tools that promote clarity and collaboration. In a world where effective communication and adaptability are crucial, Functionly helps leaders create a culture that embraces change and values personal development. By leveraging data insights and a user-friendly interface, Functionly enables companies to align their strategies with the unique talents within their teams, ensuring that every employee can grow and thrive.
This approach fosters a people-first mentality, allowing organizations to evolve continuously while maintaining a supportive environment that recognizes the diverse contributions of all members.
