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About the guest
Dean Bonas is the Director of Organisational Transformation at Virgin Media O2, specializing in workforce transformation and integration following a major telecom merger. With over 20 years of experience in the Telecoms and Media industry, he excels in agile operating models, employee engagement, and large-scale organizational change. His thought leadership is recognized at major conferences, and he has a proven track record in driving impactful transformation programs. Learn more about him on his expert page.
Adrian Clarke is the Head of Organisation Development at Virgin Media O2, where he specializes in change management and organisational design. With over 10 years of experience, he has led initiatives that enhance organisational capabilities and foster collaborative cultures, particularly during significant transitions like the Virgin Media-O2 merger. Recognized for his practice-based learning approach, Adrian is a thought leader in the field, frequently sharing insights on effective change management and organisational learning at conferences and podcasts. Learn more about him on his expert page.
Summary
In this episode of the Org Design Podcast, Tim Brewer and Damian Bramanis sit down with Adrian Clarke and Dean Bonas from Virgin Media O2 to unpack how they built and scaled an internal Org Design capability from the ground up.
From the accidental career paths that led them into OD, to the challenge of designing the joint venture between Virgin Media and O2, Adrian and Dean share powerful insights on solving cross-functional problems, building leadership capacity, and creating a culture of change.
They reveal the tools, frameworks, and cheat sheets they rely on, why operating models are more than org charts, and what it takes to prepare an organization for constant transformation and the rise of AI.
If you’re a leader facing major transformation, M&A, or simply curious about how to embed org design in your company, this is a masterclass from two people who’ve lived it.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Tim Brewer: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. I'm joined today by my co-host Damian Bramanis, and we are lucky to have Adrian and Dean from Virgin Media O2 joining us for the call, and we are all here in the UK, so it's our first all UK Org Design Podcast. Welcome guys. It's great to have you along.
[00:00:18] Adrian Clarke: Thanks for having us.
[00:00:20] Damian Bramanis: Thank you, Tim. We love to start the podcast with an introduction to you to understand how you got to where you are today, what's your story that got you into org design and where did that interest come from and how did your path take you there?
[00:00:36] Adrian Clarke: I think like many, a little bit of luck and circumstance involved in in arriving into the field of OD I was fortunate enough in my first job as a consultant to have a people manager who was deeply immersed in the world of change management, org design, org development and really took me under his wing.
So I went from not even knowing what those words would've meant in a sentence to then just being taken on a kind of a rapid journey of learning what that meant, learning what that was about and one of those moments where you you realize, oh, this is a thing that I reckon I'm, I'm really keen to do and it feels like I've found a bit of a, kinda, a bit of a calling in this field. And so that really got me into having that as an even just an option and opportunity to shape a role and ultimately a kinda a career around date those fields of OD. So that's kinda what first got me in and that's what's kept me here.
[00:01:28] Dean Bonas: And I'd love to say I was born to do it and had this long-term desire to go into OD, but it was purely accidental on my side. I have always worked in telecoms and had a sales and marketing background and took an opportunity to work for Virgin Media shareholders in the Netherlands and moved to do a group role.
And I underestimated what that really meant and the type of responsibilities I was taking on. And really my role there was to bring the countries together to solve problems and actually really enjoyed that. It was great. So I hadn't really have an operational role anymore. I was really solving problems and using the collective intelligence of a group of people to try and align on a way forward and solve something together that they couldn't solve on their own. And that shifted my career to do something quite different.
And then at the point I was looking to come back to the UK, my boss that I was moving across to and still the person I work for now. Said to me, oh, I think you should set up an OD capability for us. And to be honest, I had to Google what he really meant by that. And I said, are you really sure? he was like, yeah, it's exactly what you do. You're doing it already. And but I hadn't realized, it's like a, it was a branding I hadn't really thought of before. And then the rest, I think from there is, is history to some extent.
[00:02:45] Damian Bramanis: It's interesting that both of you mentioned that you had that guidance from from your manager that sort of dragged, almost dragged into org design, recognizing that you've got the skills and interests that aligned. And that may be org design isn't something that people really think about when they're, what do I choose to do at university?
It's much more when you're in the workforce and seeing the problems that are there and realizing that what you can do can actually help to solve those.
[00:03:11] Adrian Clarke: Honestly, I think the field that there's many different pathways to get there, whether it's something you learn by doing. All pathways ultimately are a bit of a learn by doing process. But whether it comes in from a more kind of leadership perspective where you're looking for how do I solve these really difficult, complex business challenges and perhaps some of the solutions I've been using don't quite hit the mark now I need something a bit a bit different or different way of approaching it.
I think when we work with people who've come from more of an HR and a people route who see that way of looking at how do you enable people to work better as networks within organizations and across organizations.
Or whether you come at it from a different starting point. Bit like Dean said, you wouldn't even know to use the language of it. But you find yourself doing it and almost then retrospectively going, "oh that was the thing I was doing. I thought it was just getting a group of people together to talk through a problem and coming to a collective solution kind of thought that's just how most people would do it".
But realizing that there are tools, techniques, ways of doing that, which all fall under that label of OD and then I think that can really spark an interest of, if that's an area of practice how do I get better at that? What more is there that I can use, explore, benefit from? And before you know it, certainly my experience is you start adding those kinda strings to your own bow and then realizing that's something that, that, large complex organizations like ours, they need it.
[00:04:34] Damian Bramanis: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really interested to dig into those tools and techniques and learn a little bit about, more about your internal capabilities that you've been building. But before we do that let's talk about the problems. Love to get some concrete examples about where there's been problems in the organization that have driven the need for the type of work that you do. What are the sorts of problems that you've seen a across across the organization?
[00:05:01] Dean Bonas: Adrian, should I start with why we set up an OD capability in the first place? So if I take us back in time 2020 actually Adrian and I set this up in January, 2020, just before the pandemic. So at that point in time we were still in denial about what was about to happen. In the world That is, but we, the reason we had create an OD capability was the, virgin media at that point in time.
This was pre the kind joint venture was going through a lot of change and transformation itself. And we knew in terms of the context of the market, we would likely be moving into more M&A activity. And therefore the scale and the complexity of the change that was coming required us to think differently about how we were looking at the operating model and org design.
So that's where Adrian and I came in to start to set up that capability. And started off pretty small, right? So there's a couple of us and we were then working with individual business leaders to solve specific problems.
And that's where we were, I think really earning our stripes, getting the process and the methodology together. Cracking, how does this work with the business partners in HR? And, and what that dance that we have to do initially on, are we taking something from them or adding something to them? And how does this work? And how does the collaboration work? So we started to work through that.
And then very quickly the business problems changed. So within a few months of us starting. We announced the joint venture between Virgin Media and O2, which obviously became the company we are today. So the problem state changed quite substantially from can you solve my problem here in the finance organization to how do you design the operating model for this combined organization?
And that shifted us into a more programmatic way of working, where we then had to set up and scale for a different problem to design in a pre-merger phase, what an organization could conceptually look like and what it'll cost to, to run, and how long it'll take you to get to that end state.
I thought that was probably one of the hardest things I've definitely ever done at that point. And then you get to day one and you go into post merge and you realize, okay, no, this is harder. So now actually have to do it and you have to actually lead this process and take two, quite substantial organizations and work out how you put them together.
And we still at the same time are solving individual problems and while we were in programmatic mode, in pre-merger, it wasn't like the problems in the organization stopped. So we were still solving, problem in business area A while still trying to then plan for something bigger and more more, more forward looking.
[00:07:38] Adrian Clarke: Yeah, and definitely build on that around. What's really interesting is kind of Dean described. We from starting off as a fairly small, you what you would class as more like Center of Expertise type of setup to then very quickly have to scale up, ramp up, change the way that we were delivering into more of a program delivery function and going through a joint venture of delivering big, complex pieces of organization, design work, and then coming out the back of that where we then have to then work through the then what does this mean from the longer term of we have the luxury, so we say, of being part of this organization for the future. So we have a vested interest in what we're setting up has sustainable impact and we can continue to evolve what that looks like.
But then you realize that what we were doing as an internal OD team and capability was, we're having to change your out the way that we're structured, we are having to change the way that, we have different types of roles that we need in the team to support those different things. We need different processes by which we're working that can scale up different ways of working with the business. And you think, oh, we're doing OD to ourselves and it's quite hard that actually isn't it. It's easy we get to go and help others do it and ask these interesting, challenging questions. But we're having to ask those other selves and sometimes do that intention and sometimes do a little bit retrospectively where we're having to acknowledge of this is changing in our environment, in our situation. What are we doing to adapt to that, to change to that, and having to kinda work that out in the moment sometimes.
[00:09:14] Tim Brewer: Yeah. I have a thinking about organizations that we get to meet and talk to, they're often faced with problems let's say in the pre-program programmatic stage of what you are working on. But they don't often realize that they're org design problems. Can you share a little bit more about what does a problem look like that a department's having or a leader might be having or a general manager in the business might be having and how do they know that they're looking at an org design problem, not just a, business as usual problem. How would you help a leader in another business that doesn't have an internal org design team identify what could be a org design problem in their operations?
[00:09:54] Adrian Clarke: I'll go first with my slight biased view and then, and Dean can add a different view, I'm sure. So my view would be, if you're facing a problem, there's a chance that there is an element of that which can benefit from some OD thinking. So for any leader, if it feels like you're facing a kind of a challenge, a question where it's not obvious what the answer might be, then it might be an indication there may be a benefit of looking at this with an OD systems hat perspective on. Apply it quickly to our context and then I'll let the kind of dean build from there, which is, I think when you are going through something like a JV, it's really clear that there's OD work, a lot of the work is very clearly okay, there's OD work to be done there because it's pretty clear and apparent there's gonna be some significant organizational changes, which is going to need some OD's. It's big, it's complex, it's transformational, but it's very clear cut if you like, but there is at least a big element of that, which is an OD problem to be solved.
I think to your point, Tim, where do you work with leaders where you've got almost established organizations and what's the OD lens on that is for me where they're facing those kind of complex questions, challenges and think they know that something may need to change, but may not necessarily know exactly how to tap into that.
Or they are reaching for a solution where they're trying to find, kinda almost a neat fix, and actually there's an OD way of thinking, which is if we, if you're looking to change something, we need to think about what the implications are elsewhere. So how can we gonna help as a kind of a trusted advisor thought partner.
These are slightly cliche terms, those kind of ways of how can we help you to think this through as a way of looking into what other elements of your organization design, operating model are gonna become useful levers for your you to pull, or which you might be inadvertently gonna be making changes and making impacts on those that would benefit from thinking through intentionally.
[00:11:50] Dean Bonas: I don't have much to build on that. I think that's spot on. I tend to see Adrian and I and the team are called in when there is a problem that needs to be solved between more than one leader. So where you need a level of impartiality to, to also help crack the problem and mediate between a group of people to find a solution.
And I think as a we play a delicate balance with that as internals as well. So trying to, keep that neutrality, but also get the business to the outcome that it needs to get to. And I think just like Adrian said it's often then there is a goal that somebody's trying to get to, we're not quite entirely sure how we get there. And it's complex because the path there is it's a systemic problem you need to overcome to get to the outcome you're trying to get to. And then typically that leader will not be armed with all of the capabilities required to solve that problem. And that's again, where you bring in some OD thinking and some OD capability to help you solve that. And then through that process, you might identify some things that are problems not for OD to solve, and you work out how you help them and you cast some those problems at and hand them to the right people. I think that's probably where the rubber hits the road for someone where they can't solve it themselves. That tends to be when then we get called in.
[00:13:08] Adrian Clarke: I think our experience where we've worked as a bit of a double act sometimes before, is that I might approach things very quickly, this feels like a, an OD problem to be solved or there's an OD process or I can already think of like some techniques and tools. And Dean's always really good at bringing it back to the kind of but what's the business problem to be solved? What's the leadership challenge and how do we approach this in the language of the business and the language of that leader, which is helping them, rather than us turning up with Tadda, we are here with OD superhero costume ready to kind over, get changed into.
That's, I think where Dean's always been really good at bringing that sense of, what does this really mean to the business. What does this mean for the customer? How's that gonna improve the way we work and operate? That's always been a great as I say, bit of a double act and bit of a sounding board to really sense check, are we doing this to help the business rather than the sense that we're gonna come in because we've got some like cool stuff that we like to do.
[00:14:04] Damian Bramanis: There was something you mentioned there, Dean, about how sometimes leaders aren't equipped. If you could click your fingers and give every leader across the organization a particular skill or give them some knowledge what was is it that you would give everyone of those leaders.
[00:14:20] Dean Bonas: That's a really nice question. I think there's also, there's a slightly different spin on it and it's often, it might not be about them being equipped, it might be the capacity as well. And I think you see that a lot. So if you are operating a huge function or a big division and you have to keep the lights on and you have to transform it or change it at the same time, it's quite a lot to ask generally. So having wingman what a wing person even to support you in that is that would is super useful. Maybe the magic wand piece to your question, I think is really the art of facilitation and asking the right questions and diagnostic. Because if you're a leader you know where you need to get to, the vision, you know the goal 'cause you set it right. So you should understand the outcome you're trying to get to. And then you can work backwards from there.
[00:15:15] Tim Brewer: You mentioned before, and it mentioned maybe two or three times in the call, an operating model. For a lot of leaders, they're familiar with an org structure and org chart. They're familiar with leading kind of changes to their structure, but it's not as common in understanding on exactly what an operating model is.
How would you define, at Virgin Media O2, what an operating model is to a leader that's come in and doesn't understand, what you're talking about when you talk about an operating model and why is it important to to the org design process.
[00:15:47] Adrian Clarke: I think language of op model, org design, org effectiveness, they can be really helpful sometimes if it helps to describe the thing we are working on with, and it can also be unhelpful when they can be interpreted in different ways. So when I reference operating model in the context of this call and the context of kind of Virgin Media O2, I'm using it as a way of actually getting the thinking beyond the org structure and the org chart.
So for me, I'm using it as a bit of a shorthand to to then go into what's the whole system that we are working with within the organization. That's a fantastic org chart on paper. Now, what's the reality of what's happening in practice and where are things that are different between them and what's the cause of some of those things? Or, where can we go and do some diagnostic type work to go and look at how well is the organization working at the moment and what are the indicators of that?
And then I would use op models a way of them breaking down into some of those different component parts to look at things like how well a process is working here, how well they are decision making, working in governance working here. What type of capabilities do we need now and for the future. So all of those for me could come under a broader banner of an operating model. But just for me provides a kinda a neat shorthand way of describing something which is beyond organizational structure and charts and very much into the whole system of the way things work and I think again, sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not. But I think anything which is language or ways of entering into the conversation where you are able to explore different things and find the thing that hooks that leader in, that they can recognize the issue at hand or gives them a way of hooking into, "actually, do you know what, yeah, decisions are a bit difficult to get made around here. I am facing that problem". Maybe we could explore different ways of how's the process of decision making happening? Where are those tension points in the system? So that's to me is when I use kinda language of op model, what I'm trying to get into is just expanding that kind of thinking around how we are looking at the system we're working within.
[00:17:57] Dean Bonas: I think that links quite well to your last question as well, in terms of sometimes where maybe leaders get stuck. 'Cause I think if you start with structure, that's often probably why you are getting stuck and might need to call someone like myself or Adrian in.
We would typically try and keep people away from the structure part of the problem until the very end and try and, sit up front for a while and really take a step back and look more systemically at the operating model. And try and crack that first and really start looking at what's the capability I need, what's the capacity I need, what are the processes that are running this organization?
And then it makes solving the structure equation much easier. But typically the energy goes to structure first and that's where you get quickly. And often when you are called into a piece of work, there's already a structure that exists. You end up then having to try and claw that out of their hands and then pull them further up the process, and start somewhere else and then get back to the structure piece later.
[00:18:57] Damian Bramanis: Yeah, you are obviously in quite a well respected department that's well known in the industry. And obviously having a lot of good impact. How do you think Virgin Media O2 would look if your work wasn't done? If the, if that department didn't exist and the org design capability wasn't there, what do you think the organization would look like today?
[00:19:21] Adrian Clarke: I'll step in then, while we think about it. I, my perspective on this is I think as an organization we'd have exquisitely well-designed functions within their functions. But a lack of cross-functional ways of working. So I think one of things that we are able to bring, because we are in a some ways a unique position to be able to do this is to look at the whole of the enterprise and to work in the spirit of we are interested in how the whole organization, the whole business works. And in positive regard in that, a lot of our leaders, you, they are having to think about the areas that they're directly responsible and accountable for. And that's the bit where Dean was mentioning earlier around what would you love to get from some of the leaders is that you having the time space to look up a little bit more often, the time space to pause, reflect, think about the kind of impacts that goes across the business in the organization.
So my response to the, what would look different is, I think we would have, yeah, effective things happening within the organization, but where I feel like we've been able to provide impact and value is, particularly as we look across. Functions and look at how things work as a kind of, as a whole business and a whole system. And encourage that type of thinking to get people beyond just their immediate boundaries of what they're responsible and accountable for, and thinking of the implications, the impacts that has when you sit that within a broader context of the whole business that they're operating within.
[00:20:55] Damian Bramanis: Yeah, that, that really resonates with me and I'm seeing so many organizations and I've worked in organizations where you look like, "we're doing great. Like everything that we do is fine, but when you look at the organization as a whole, it's chaos. And I'm sure like we're underperforming as a, as an organization despite the fact that our department's doing great".
And I think that that sort of same story plays out in so many organizations all around the world.
[00:21:22] Adrian Clarke: and just for us bring that to life a little bit. We had a piece of work last year where we were bringing four different functions together in a room, in, in the same physical space where we were bringing kind of leaders from across those functions together and actually working through, rather than their individual areas, taking the kind of the big complex topics that crossed their areas and saying how do we tackle this collectively?
And it was one of the first times where actually I think those people had the experience of just sitting together in person to approach this as a collective problem or opportunity to solve rather than trying to solve it in their own individual areas. And we had really positive feedback coming out of that, around actually just having that opportunity, literally the time and space to come together and work through this with some, yeah, sometimes light touch facilitation, but just some kind of fairly simple, sometimes tools and techniques to guide through. But ultimately the main thing was getting the people together to work through it as a collective problem.
[00:22:25] Dean Bonas: and on that example, so like where, just to bring that to life. That was about, that those four leaders, Adrian reference was about 60% of our workforce and 80% of our revenue of our organization. So I wouldn't undersell when we talk about four areas together. That was a complex piece of work that Adrian and his team navigated through.
I think the other bit in terms of what would look different, I would say our organization now is in a steady state of constant disruption. So we've gone through like peaks and troughs of an integration, but now there's constant transformation, constant change. What we're able to do, I think, is enable that in the most effective way possible, and in, in by being as well as a, an OD capability. We have complimented that now with a dedicated people change team, a programmatic team, a people, data and analytics team dedicated to this kind of OE function. So then not only are we helping people with the design, we then have the right people upfront that are working out well, How do you actually then move the humans from a, from and to be state, and how do you manage that process and deal with multiple trade unions to make that process happen. And then how do you keep all of your baseline and your data and finance happy through that process? And keep the wheels on the bus. So actually Adrian and the OD team can do brilliant work and facilitate and use all their tools and tricks without being distracted by some of the other noise that goes on around some of this change.
[00:24:00] Adrian Clarke: there are lots of people who've helped to advocate for the type of work that we do and the way we approach it. And some of it has been learned by experience, not always positive. Yeah. We've learned from mistakes we have made or experiences where things didn't work because it wasn't as connected or we were missing elements and so some of what we've learned to put in place has been through the experience of learning things that didn't work as well. And also not ever being in a position where we think, oh we've got the answer now. We, we know how this works. But always approaching the work with that perspective of, each piece of work is unique in some ways, so there's not a, there's not a single textbook that we have that we just, we rock up and say, yep, we know how this works. Leave it to us. Everything is always in, in kind of partnership across, different parts of our organization to bring respective strengths together and capabilities together to look at, right how do we now tackle this particular challenge?
[00:24:57] Tim Brewer: Yeah. I wanted to lean into you talked about capabilities. Sometimes we have people in the culture talk about an org having a healthy. Org design culture have a culture that facilitates that change in a more streamlined and effective way. Can you tell us a little bit about what have you learned over the five years that you've got to work together through both the really large changes and the iterative change that's happened?
What are the capabilities that you've tried to build there at, in your organization? And what are the takeaways for other leaders that are staring down the barrel, maybe of a huge reorg or m and a activity as they think, how do I best prepare our leaders and teams for this to be successful, whether culture and capability level.
[00:25:42] Dean Bonas: Having change management capability in your leadership needs to be consistent and at scale into the best possible level you can achieve that, if you are facing into some large transformation m and a style kind of activity. Because actually when the rubber hits the road and you really start to say, for example, integrate two companies. You'll have a HR capability and a may, maybe an OD capability, but you are then reliant on the leaders in the organization to lead that change. And and none of the pieces of work Adrian or I would take on I would ever say, if there's an op model program or an org design program in the consumer business, it's not our program, it's the consumer teams piece of work. They have to own it, they have to lead it. They can be supported by us all day long, but we're not accountable for this, it's their organization. And when you see leaders almost then fall back and then rely heavily on somebody else to deliver the change management then you have a real problem.
You can really centralize having a small OD capability and have some experts in a COE that can help others. And I think what we're doing and I think works is then, looking at that as more like a Community of Practice and how you then build capability in others is great, but the scale needs to be, leaders need to be equipped to be able to lead change, guide people through a change curve, speak authentically, own the message, and so this becomes a broader then kind of comms, change management piece that is critical if you're staring into a big transformation.
[00:27:24] Damian Bramanis: Adrian, you mentioned that there were some really simple tools and techniques that you used to be able to go through that process.
I'm sure there's leaders out there who are listening, wondering what those simple tools and techniques are. Is there something that, that I could pick up and use tomorrow to be able to help navigate organizational design problems in my own company? What are some things that you'd suggest that they look into?
[00:27:45] Adrian Clarke: Yep. I think. As ever, there are hundreds of tools, techniques, textbooks, which can all help here. I think one of the things that for us and our teams do really is actually using the kind of the facilitation consulting type skills where it's matching the needs with bringing in the right tools and templates.
So in answer to your question, yes there's many kind of tools, templates that we would use. Almost a bit of a sign for us is almost, is the tool and template simple enough that we could turn up to a room, get a blank piece of A3 paper, and draw the template out and use it in the moment 'cause to me, that's a sign of, it's gonna be, it's gonna be easy to engage with. It's not too over complicated. When we are in the process of facilitative problem solving, solutionizing, idea generation, lots of different kind of tools, but a lot of them are down to very simply, can we sketch this out on a, what are trying to solve? What are you trying to get from and to? Can we drill down into the details around what are some of the strengths we've currently got we need to retain? What are some of the areas of problems that we're trying to solve? And about some of the upfront pieces and how do we go about gathering the right data and evidence for that?
And then there are certain, design tools and templates to be used based on, or which part of the operating model are we trying to focus on? Is it more about clarity of accountabilities, in which case let's get some accountability frameworks and write that out.
Is it more capability based? In which case do we do more order a capability assessment?
Is it more decision making governance? What's our structures and mechanisms for those things? So I think a variety of things, but ultimately is what is it that's going to help a group of people to get on the same page? Sometimes, quite literally there's A3 bit of paper. And clarify. Are we all looking at the same thing, trying to solve the same thing? Are we clear on the definitions? Perhaps the only little bit I'd add to it alongside that is where we have got tools that enable us to do more of a real time organizational modeling as well, which is a bit more of a technical tool to use.
Increasingly important for me now around are we able to take some of these scenarios and model them in real time to get a real snapshot view of what might that look like Then as a new organization, and the better we have those with the kind of the data that sits behind that to be able understand impact, that is also becoming a more and more of a useful tool and enabler to the work we do to get that real time data insight modeling alongside that.
[00:30:28] Dean Bonas: But I'm always astonished by how many tools and tricks Adrian does have when he comes to going through this process as well. So there's always a new one for me, so I'm always learning at this.
But I think it's pretty simple as well. I would avoid all of the complexity upfront about what the current problems are and start future back, as we would term it in VM O2 and start from where do you wanna be? Where do you wanna get to? What's the end state? And that gets a lot of energy and it's much easier than to think about, just forget all the problems and how you get there. Let's just, let's think about where do I wanna get to and what does that look like? And that, that will help galvanize a group of people around that vision.
And then you can do the hard work of how do I work backwards? How do I get, from where I am today through to that end state. Don't start from where am I today and where are all the problems, because that's a negative place to start from, and that might drive, might not drive you to the right out outcome.
And then ultimately, once you've got that vision aligned, it's then a co-creation exercise. So get the right people in a room to help you work through how you get there. And you can put a simple outline of a framework and a process together on the steps you're gonna go to get there. But ultimately, if you get the right people together, you will work it out and you'll guide those people to that end point.
The other kind of mix tool I'd have in the mix is some kind of capability framework because if you could anchor people around business capability, actually it's much easier and much more objective to talk about that than it is roles, people, functions. And if you are in an early phase of an org design process and you hear people using people's names, so red flag, you shut it down.
So if I say, "oh, it's Fred, but Fred's really good at doing X", shut it down, you're heading down the wrong path. You have keep the people and the kind current roles at it for as long as you can and be much more objective. And a capability framework will help you do that. So you might need a billing capability, you might need a vendor management capability, you might need a supply chain capability, operate at that level. And it'd be really high level at the start. And then start to peel the onion and get more detailed. But that will help you be more objective and keep some pace than getting lost in the weeds in process as.
[00:32:28] Tim Brewer: Yeah, that's really good advice.
[00:32:30] Adrian Clarke: I'll add one more 'cause I if you're on a bit of a cheat sheet, I suppose for me, if I think of, if I was to go into a conversation totally unprepared and unarmed, if you like, and what's the one thing I would take in with me? It would be some kind of a systems model. It would be something, whether it was a Galbraith or we have a slightly adapted one we use within Virgin Media O2. I could go in there and be pretty confident that the conversation, wherever it starts, wherever it ends, there'll be something here, which maybe you've used in this conversation to go, so where do you think the problems are? Is it process, governance, capability, structure, or have you already come up with some ideas? In which case, where would you be need to be changing? So yeah, if you're on a real cheat sheet, that would probably be my one go-to in the back pocket. That's gonna come out and get me something of value in this conversation. If I had nothing else on me.
[00:33:18] Tim Brewer: I have a question for people that are in the organization that maybe in that same point you were when you were asked Hey, we're thinking we need in our organization and org design capability. Can you look at what it'd take to put a team or function or department together? To be able to support the rest of the organization and either leading into big change or maybe it's just a, an organization with lots of change going on. What would your advice be to that? Either an org design professional filling, a slightly different role, or someone that's just naturally org design curious and has been tapped on the shoulder to consider that. What are the thoughts they should have going round in their head about the right time? And way to build out an org design capability in their organization like you've built over the last five years.
[00:34:04] Dean Bonas: I suppose I'd wanna know upfront what's the, some of the capability that sits in the existing organization. So what's the maturity of the organization? What already exists. And how is it delivering org design, today? So what's its kind of current state, what's the environment we expect to be operating in and what's the, I suppose the leadership appetite and buy-in? Where is that coming from? ' Cause without that, it's very difficult. I think that's where Adrian and I are able to operate because we sit within a people and transformation function, so that kind of helps that those two things are together. But we have a great relationship with the business partners. Neither of us can get the work done without one another, and we work really well together, and we have a good relationship with of our Exec Co and our senior leadership team. And that is mission critical because if they're not bought in to the idea of looking at things more systemically, looking at things, more enterprise or cross-functional, then you're gonna have a pretty hard time operating, you'll end up producing tools and techniques and not actually getting into the action .
[00:35:14] Adrian Clarke: I think advice for people looking to build something similar in organizations building on what Dean was saying, with what's the outcomes and the impact you'd want to make through having that capability internally? And then linked to that then to guide you on what's the type of skills, capabilities, and style you then want the people filling that role or those roles to have, 'cause that's where the impact will come, is in the the relationship building skills that those people have as much as the technical OD skills.
[00:35:44] Tim Brewer: Just thinking now out into the future as we close. Been a lot of discussion in market about AI in organizations and thinking about both the technology and structure shifts that people are thinking about to accommodate that. How are you both thinking about the workforce of the future and are you doing anything in your work to integrate or augment that shift we're seeing in technology around AI and LLMs into your workforces.
[00:36:12] Adrian Clarke: Embrace it fully in terms of how does that become part of the diagnostic and insight work that we do in organizations to use those kind of AI technologies to help, to improve and enhance the ways that we can conduct diagnostics and insights and better analysis and even predictive ways of looking at modeling scenarios in the business. So I'd say embrace it fully as part of kind of org diagnostic and insight work. The flip side of that, I'd say is then almost helping with within what's the leadership and organizational capability we need to embed within the organization to work with that. And what's the real human and empathetic skills and styles and things that we need to also dial up alongside that to enable us to work effectively as a human and technology driven organizations, and how do we make that work really effectively? So those are the things I'd say. Absolutely embrace it and also look at the, what's the implications for the human networking side of the organization and those types of leadership skills of the future that needs to embrace that work with that for the effective organization of the future.
[00:37:22] Dean Bonas: think that's spot on. The only build I would have to that is in our organization, it's forcing us to make some longer term decisions in a positive way. And the adjacent, discipline that's sitting aside OD that we're now scaling up is strategic workforce planning. And that's then taking a much longer term view. And this is difficult for these, this is, it's not an easy shift from how we ran the organization yesterday, to then trying to think in more of a strategic workforce planning way to look much longer term. And then think about the organization in terms of capability and skill rather than roles and people. And then you can start to be objective and say, actually, based on the disruption or the benefits we see from AI, what will happen to those capabilities over time? What therefore happens to the skills and the capacity that we need in the organization over time? And how do we then work to get from A to B? And do you buy, build, borrow, bot? How do you get there?
This is really cool. But it's difficult. For us certainly, there's lots and lots of use cases, but then how we get there is complex with the kind of current structures and current organizations that you have in place today. And then how do you re-skill a whole workforce to be ready for the type of change that is coming at the scale and pace that the change is coming, then that becomes pretty cool, pretty exciting. But to do that work well, you need to understand your total workforce, which is probably a whole other podcast for a whole other day.
And that's really difficult with an organization like ours where you outsource a lot of your capability and then trying to understand well, what are you really spending to run that capability and how much human effort is behind that capability and what skills are there when you've outsourced a lot of that work, but you might not wanna outsource that long term, or AI might replace the humans altogether.
That then really changes your operating model and that really changes your organizational design. So I think the work ahead of Adrian and I in the coming years becomes really interesting, far more complex than what we've had to do so far. A different discipline that we're facing into now with what's coming with AI.
[00:39:33] Damian Bramanis: Thank you so much guys, that's been a really fascinating chat. We've talked through everything from the OD way of thinking through to the value of org design. What sort of other the really important skills for org designers to have and some of the tools and cheat sheets. Just before we do wrap up if people are interested in learning more or reaching out to you, was there a way that someone can can find out more about yourselves or your organization?
[00:39:57] Adrian Clarke: I think LinkedIn's probably always a good starter. So yeah, you can find either of us on LinkedIn. So be very happy to connect and answer any questions.
[00:40:08] Tim Brewer: Awesome. Dean, Adrian, thank you so much for joining us on the Org Design Podcast today. We've had a great time. Damian, thanks for co-hosting. Thanks Tim. As well. We look forward to seeing everyone next time. Bye everyone.
[00:40:20] Damian Bramanis: Great.
[00:40:21] Dean Bonas: Thanks.
Functionly is designed to streamline organizational design and enhance collaboration across teams, especially in complex environments where change is constant. By providing tools that facilitate real-time organizational modeling, Functionly enables leaders to visualize and align their operating models with strategic goals. This approach encourages a holistic view of the organization, allowing teams to collaboratively identify capabilities needed for the future while effectively managing transitions and integrations during periods of transformation. With its focus on building a culture of continuous improvement, Functionly empowers organizations to adapt and thrive amidst challenges, ensuring that every leader is equipped to lead change effectively.
