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About the guest
Ann Greene is an Ireland-based organization design and change specialist, founder and Managing Director of Allagi, with over 20 years of international cross-industry experience. She is a Certified Organization Design Professional (CODP®) and a Prosci Certified Change Practitioner. Ann's expertise includes aligning business strategy with organizational models and structures, and she emphasizes collaborative, co-created processes to ensure successful change adoption. Learn more about her on her expert page.
Summary
Ann Greene, founder and principal at Dublin-based Allagi, joins the Org Design Podcast live from the EODF conference in Milan. With nearly two decades of organizational design experience, Ann unpacks the real symptoms of broken org design — from sluggish decision-making to persistent silos — and why restructuring alone rarely solves them.
Ann introduces her now-famous wardrobe analogy to explain the core principle of org design: structure must serve purpose. She challenges the common fixation on eliminating silos, arguing instead for making the walls of verticals porous so information and collaboration can flow freely. She also shares what kinds of people get the most from this work — curious, open, and willing to sit with ambiguity. Whether you're a senior leader quietly suspecting your org design is holding you back, or a consultant trying to explain what you do at dinner parties — this is the episode for you.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Tim Brewer: so you roll up at a dinner party maybe family and friends, and they're like, "oh, Ann, what do you do for work again?" How do you explain to people what you do?
[00:00:07] Ann Greene: Yeah, it's my nightmare question. I recently played tennis with two slightly older ladies, who asked me exactly that question, and I tried to say my one sentence of, "well, we help our clients translate their strategy into how they organize their people, their capabilities, and their work". And one looked at the other and she said, I really wish I knew what she was talking about, but I don't.
[00:00:33] Tim Brewer: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. My name is Tim Brewer. I'm joined by Damian Bramanis, co-host. Today we have Ann Greene, Ann is from Allagi in Dublin. We are at the EODF conference in Milan, Italy. We've had a wonderful time interviewing all kinds of very interesting org design experts. And so today we're gonna talk a little bit about her experience. Ann, welcome to the show.
[00:00:59] Ann Greene: Thank you. Delighted to be here. Ciao, we should say Ciao.
[00:01:04] Tim Brewer: Ann, maybe start by sharing with us, how long have you been in org design for?
[00:01:12] Ann Greene: Allagi was started in 2005, so we're 19 years old. So Allagi is a Greek word that means change. And we've always been about change and helping our clients to achieve more better, more effectively, quicker, whatever it is that they want. Over the years we've narrowed down into org design and probably for the last five or six, it's really been all that we do.
[00:01:37] Tim Brewer: Did you always want to do org design at school? Like everyone else was like, "oh, I want to be a scientist. I'm gonna be a police officer, I'm gonna be a doctor". And you're like, "I'm gonna do org design".
[00:01:46] Ann Greene: No, I did want to be a scientist. Oh, I did originally do science, when I left school for a while. So it is interesting because as I've grown up, I have found my place, found my joy, and I've thought a little bit about why is it that I love this work so much and genuinely it sounds really twee to say it, I don't have that Sunday night feeling of dreading Monday morning. I get up and there is no day, even the challenging days, even the days I know are gonna be tough. And even the days that are tough. Still feel good. I enjoy them, and I think a big part of the reason for that is that I am originally a scientist, an engineer taking stuff apart. How does it work? How do you put it back together? And I love puzzles, and I think that's what org design is.
And then the scientist in me goes, well it's not, because like maths has an answer. It's right or it's wrong. Org design doesn't have one answer. And it can never be perfect. That's another lesson I always start with, just setting clients' expectations. There is no perfect org design, but there can be really bad org design.
So I think that what I love about the puzzling, is working with people together, people, clients who know their organizations, know their business, know their market, their clients, their service users, and them bringing that to the table. Us bringing a process, a way of thinking, a challenge, a questioning, and together figuring out the puzzle and creating the answer that will work for them.
And then looking at where it's not perfect and saying, how do we mitigate for that?
[00:03:28] Tim Brewer: You said that there can be organizations that are poorly designed. For a leader listening to the podcast, who's thinking, "I think I might have an org design problem". What kind of symptoms do you see consistently to say there's, there could be an org design problem at play?
[00:03:44] Ann Greene: That's a great question 'cause nobody comes along and goes, we have a really bad org design, but people might find that they have things like slow decision making, that can be a result of having either too many layers in the organization. So there are too many step points or decision points. It slows everything down unnecessarily. It can be about not having the right kind of coordinating mechanisms between the verticals, the functions, or the silos. Use whatever word you want, that disables people from collaborating well. You'll often find conflicting or misaligned priorities between functions or divisions or sections of an organization.
And again, that can be about the design, the work being bounded in ways that don't really work for people to collaborate who need to. Information flows, not really working, people, not getting the information that they need, where they need it, when they need it, to enable them to deliver as a collective.
And one of the challenges we're often given is we talk to clients about what is it you'd like to achieve in doing this work? And they say, we'd like to eliminate silos and most, I won't say all, but most org designs, they deconstruct some silos and they create different ones. You don't solve that kind of issue like those I've described around decision making, information flows, or lack of collaboration or competing priorities by restructuring, because you're just gonna create different verticals or different silos, what you really need to do is think about how you make the walls of those verticals porous, so that stuff flows between them. So poor org design or inappropriate org design often manifests in those kinds of issues. Yeah. So the thing just doesn't work.
[00:05:42] Damian Bramanis: Mm. I love the talk of silos because that's something that I hear a lot from the industries or from leaders around the world is " silos are our problem and we really need to eliminate these silos". How should people be thinking about silos? Is what is good, what is bad? What is something that they should be aiming to achieve?
[00:06:01] Ann Greene: Again, I think it, it starts with strategy where you're trying to go, what is most important that you achieve? And that sounds really obvious, but a lot of people don't start there. We had this dilemma number one, which was about do we, do people follow strategy or do we design for the people that we have and the capabilities that we have? And that's a really real dilemma because unless you're starting with a complete blank page, you have a certain amount that you have to work with. But it does not just go without saying that everybody, of course, starts with strategy. You know, we often find that we go in to ostensibly to do a piece of org design work and discover that there's a real lack of alignment around the strategy and the priorities before we start.
And so we have to go back there because otherwise, it's just finger in the air, i'm taking a guess. And let's hope that we land in the right place on our org design. So in thinking about the silos, the silos to me are simply representative of kind of buckets of work, capability, and people.
And it's back to the analogy of the wardrobe organization.
[00:07:12] Amy J Springer: The wardrobe conversation was from the interview pre-chat, here it is here,
[00:07:16] Ann Greene: Yeah. So when I talk to brand new clients or people who ask about this work, one analogy I often use is have you ever done a kind of a wardrobe reorganization? So imagine you go in your room, you look at the wardrobe, it's a mess. Pull out everything, throw it on the bed. Now bear in mind, you now can't go to bed till you finish this. How are you gonna put the stuff back? How are you gonna organize putting the stuff back? Any ideas?
[00:07:45] Tim Brewer: I just find it incredibly difficult and I just go for exactly what I feel most comfortable in, which for me is like board shorts and a t-shirt. Now, for all our listeners, it's not appropriate in most business context to roll up in thongs and board shorts to most business meetings. Some, maybe like in Bali, but
[00:08:03] Damian Bramanis: thongs does mean something a little
[00:08:05] Tim Brewer: flip flops. Flip flops. for our Americans. Flip Flop's
[00:08:09] Ann Greene: You've just given me an image I'm never gonna get rid of, but
[00:08:13] Tim Brewer: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
[00:08:15] Ann Greene: I really was kind of,
[00:08:17] Tim Brewer: but I have made that mistake before and they get super confused, so I appreciate you clarifying that for me, Damian. Yeah. So I do find when working on my own wardrobe, to use an analogy, it's really difficult to think through that in the same way as I would someone else's.
[00:08:33] Ann Greene: Okay. Okay. What about you Damian?
[00:08:35] Damian Bramanis: I would put myself in the mindset of I'm in a hurry, it's first thing in the morning, so that's the time where wardrobe organization would be most critical. And so I'd say, what do I need to make really easy to access? I would figure out the top few things, the fail safe items and just drop them front and center. And then I would start packing all of the rest away. Stacking lesser and lesser worn and lesser and less important things right, at the back and the bottom.
Okay,
[00:09:03] Ann Greene: Okay, fantastic. So you've got some criteria for how you'd organize it 'cause you're thinking about what do I need to use it for?
[00:09:09] Damian Bramanis: I, yeah. I would think about my lived experience of future me and try to make future me happy.
[00:09:16] Ann Greene: Great. Great, I love it. So when I ask that question of people, they often kind of say, "oh, well, I would put all my tops, all my trousers, all my skirts, all my jackets". So that's by category of item, right?
Other people would say, "well, I put all my, whatever season it is, I'll put that most closest to me, and maybe the other stuff goes more to the back". Somebody else might say, "I organized by all my sportswear in one place. All my work wear in one place, or my ledge wear or my lounge wear, that kind of thing". So kind of by activity.
Somebody else might say, "I could sort by color, hang all my stuff in different colors" and somebody else might say, I put my, "what fits me right now and then my one day stuff more at the back". So which of those ways is right. Which of all those ways of organizing your wardrobe, do you think is most right?
[00:10:11] Tim Brewer: I don't know if it depends on the person and how they access and work with their wardrobe.
[00:10:17] Ann Greene: The answer is of course, that all of those ways could be right. Okay. Depending on, what you need to do. So in your case, Damian, you said, well, I would look at what do I need to access? 'Cause I know I'm gonna be in a hurry. So therefore my chosen way of organizing would be to put the stuff I need most at the front. If I were someone who had a visual impairment, I might say I'm gonna sort it out by color because then if I know all my dark stuff is over here. All my lighter stuff, my brights are together.
I can put my hand and I know I'm not gonna go out by mistake in a purple top and a yellow polka dot skirt, or, that might look nice, but that might not be what I wanna do. Personally, I get up in the morning to go to the gym early. I'm not allowed to turn on the light, so I know that I gotta have a drawer where all my gym gear is and I can just put my hand in the dark and I'm gonna find a pair of shorts and a t-shirt.
Somebody else might wanna have, I want all my work wear together 'cause I want that separate, 'cause I wear really different stuff in the weekend than I do at work, for example.
So the answer is, it depends.
It depends what you wanna use it for. And that's the first lesson of org design. Org design is simply about taking what you have, the work you need to do to deliver your strategy and looking at how you could best organize it. You're gonna probably find that you have several options in that space. And you and you need to decide which one is gonna be best. And so the very first lesson of org design is know what you need to use it for, know what you need it to do for you.
back to the conversation
It's what org design is. It's about how we group activities or work and capabilities and people to deliver what we're trying to do as a business, as an organization, whatever we are.
And that's where you have to identify what are these coordinating mechanisms that we can put in place to make that work.
[00:12:16] Damian Bramanis: Can you give an example of a coordinating mechanism?
[00:12:20] Ann Greene: Yeah. So if you find that the way that you're organized means that certain people work, let's say in certain divisions or functions within the organization, and therefore the place in which they live and are given their day-to-day direction to execute their work is within that vertical and doesn't enable them to be together.
One alternative is to create a formal structure where you put those cross-functional teams or people roles together. What would you achieve with that? They'd work together. You'd have more of a cross-functional piece, but if that's not an option, you can create an informal kind of structure, like a cross-functional working group that meets X number of times a week, a month, a year. And comes together to solve those questions.
[00:13:11] Tim Brewer: I know you've been. Doing org design in Ireland for many years. What are your, you how would someone listening to the podcast know they're a really amazing fit for your organization? are the your favorite companies to work for where you get the biggest results?
[00:13:31] Ann Greene: I think maybe rather than favorite companies to work with, it's favorite people to work with. I think the thing is that we, we bring a process, challenge and our org design expertise to the piece, but every organization is different. And we do sometimes get the question, what's best practice for this industry? I kind of think it's somewhat irrelevant as a question because it's really about what's gonna be fit for purpose for you, for what you're trying to do. Because even if we know, even if we've done work with five not-for-profit organizations, or five financial services organizations, or five life sciences organizations, they're all different. They all need different things. They're all governed in different ways. They're set up in different ways and they're trying to do different things.
So we bring a process and an org design expertise, but we work then collaboratively with our clients. And we rely on them to bring that really deep, detailed knowledge of the organization itself and what it needs. And together we can come up with the prototype that works for that organization. So it's less about the types of companies, though I said earlier, I came from a background in science. I love working with science organizations, those in life sciences, health, pharma, but what we really love to work with are people who are Curious.
Curious is one of our corporate values. It's really important. You have got to be curious to do this kind of work.
You've got to be prepared to explore and to not shut down too quickly. To live with a certain amount of ambiguity and lack of structure, ironically enough in the process, and be prepared to go where it takes you. You've gotta be open and really genuinely open. I think Liz, yesterday, one of our speakers at the conference said she thought that she was really open and transparent, but found there was significant challenge as she went through the process in actually really what that meant and felt like for her. And there was challenge in that.
So we want people to be truly open, people who are authentic. I sometimes look at this and I go, the same time, we wanna have a bit of fun. It's a bit of a balance this work between science and art, it's structured and it's process driven, but it's also creative to a degree. We wanna have a bit of fun.
We're not fixing newborn babies' hearts here, you know? No huge catastrophe will happen if we get something wrong, we will never go so far wrong that the organization will come crashing down. So let's kind of enjoy it. I guess those are are the attributes I'd look for.
[00:16:17] Tim Brewer: Ann, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
[00:16:21] Ann Greene: Thanks for having me really enjoyed it.
[00:16:22] Tim Brewer: Damian. Rory, thanks for coming on the ride with us today as well.
[00:16:27] Damian Bramanis: So One, last question and before we go. If people are interested in what you've been talking about today or would like to get in contact, what's the best way for them learn more reach out to you?
Yeah,
[00:16:36] Ann Greene: sure. They can go And visit our website. That's alaggi.ie They can look me or my colleagues up on LinkedIn. We love to hear from people, love to hear their challenges, have a conversation and see if we think we can help.
[00:16:50] Damian Bramanis: Thank you. Thank you so much. Ann. it's been really great to get into the brain of an org designer today. We've learned about puzzle solving, we've learned about curiosity. we've learned about how to organize a wardrobe, and maybe you don't want to put it all in one big box, but silos might not be too bad. And, had some great conversations along the way. So thank you so much for your time.
[00:17:08] Ann Greene: Thanks
[00:17:08] Tim Brewer: See you everyone.
Functionly empowers organizations to navigate the complexities of organizational design by providing tools that facilitate strategic alignment and collaboration. By leveraging Functionly's platform, leaders can visualize and optimize their organizational structure, ensuring that teams are not siloed but rather work cohesively towards shared goals. The platform supports the creation of cross-functional teams and helps establish clear coordinating mechanisms, allowing for better decision-making and information flow. Ultimately, Functionly enables organizations to build a more adaptable and efficient structure that aligns with their strategic objectives, fostering an environment where innovation and collaboration thrive.
