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Anissa Oukhiar is a highly experienced and certified organization design professional, serving as Associate Director of Operating Model Design at ON THE MARK and Chair of the European Organisation Design Forum (EODF). She holds a Master’s degree (Cum Laude) in Organisation Studies from Tilburg University and is a Certified Organisation Design Professional (CODP). With over 13 years of experience, she specializes in improving organizational operating models and driving strategic alignment across both public and private sectors. Learn more about her on her expert page.
Live from Milan at the European Organization Design Forum (EODF), Tim Brewer and Damian Bramanis sit down with Anissa Oukhiar — EODF Chair, trustee, and host of Brown, Brainy and Beautiful.
Anissa shares her unconventional journey into org design, from a multi-disciplinary academic path to finding her place in a collaborative consultancy, and ultimately leading a diverse, values-driven community. She explains why EODF is the “hippies” of the org design world, what makes its conferences so unique, and how the community’s spirit fosters both inclusion and innovation.
This conversation dives into:
How to get buy-in and navigate ambiguity without losing the human touch
Whether you’re an org design veteran or just exploring the field, this episode offers both inspiration and practical wisdom from one of its most vibrant leaders.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/anissaoukhiar/
Podcast - Brown, Brainy and Beautiful
European Organisation Design Forum
[00:00:00] Tim Brewer: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. We are here in Milan at the EODF event. Myself, Tim Brewer, joining as co-host Damian Bramanis.
[00:00:09] Damian Bramanis: I'm really excited to introduce Anissa Oukhiar, who is joining us. Anissa is the chair and one of the trustees of EODF, which is the European Organization Design Forum, and also host of the podcast, Brown, Brainy and Beautiful. Anissa has got a wealth of experience and knowledge and stories to share with us about organization design and is a really great supporter of the org design community. So we're really excited to have her on the podcast.
[00:00:37] Anissa Oukhiar: I'm so excited to be here guys. Thank you. And it's so great that you here, doing what you do. Really appreciate it. Yeah,
[00:00:43] Tim Brewer: Not everyone's journey into org design is a straight line. I know you've got many years as an org designer. Were you school, you talking to your friends, they're like, I think I'll go in being a sports star, or I'm gonna go study law. You're like, Hmm,
[00:00:56] Anissa Oukhiar: no, man, not none of that. None of that. No. I, it is a typical millennial thing. This exposes also even the millennial rage is quite large. But exposes my generation, not really knowing what you want to do, and not knowing what you would like to study. And I essentially liked psychology and a little bit of economics and political science and basically just all of those things that surround those disciplines.
And I ended up, after two Bachelors, I've ended up doing a Masters that focused on organization studies and studied behaviors of people in teams and how you can influence that from a structural perspective and what you have to engineer in terms of business engineering and processes.
But I was always fascinated in behavior. So for me it was a natural thing coming out of that in terms of a academic background that I was like, okay, now what? I have no idea what I'm gonna do. Honestly, zero clue. And I just ended up at a consultancy in the Netherlands, and there was an org design team there, and it resonated directly with what I studied. So I was like, okay, I guess it makes sense. I know all the theory, but I have no idea how to do it, so maybe this is a great place to learn how to do that. So that's how I ended up there and I ended up really liking it, especially the collaborative part where you collaborate with a customer in a way where you are not necessarily the expert but you really partner up, respecting and acknowledging the knowledge and expertise that the customer has in terms of understanding their business, but then bringing the neutral and objectivity and outside in perspective and perhaps, some theoretical and empirical knowledge of "have you tried this?" And perhaps we can run a workshop like that and that maybe, will tickle some energy and and pull it out of people that they end up collaborating with each other for a good purpose for the organization. So I ended up doing that, liking it, and now I do that in London.
[00:03:06] Tim Brewer: Tell us about your story with EODF and how would you describe it to someone whose, not been to an org design conference before, what makes this one special?
[00:03:15] Anissa Oukhiar: I find that EODF as a community really is like the hippies of people who try to create change in organizations. It's not static, like people are fun, connection is really an important value. And there's a sense of humility as well.
It doesn't really matter how much experience you have or how long you've been in the field, there's this natural tendency for being curious, being open, and equally, just having this humility where we have this unwritten rule of we don't sell what we do to each other, and we we're just here to really learn and have a good time, basically.
So for me, it's just a bunch of hippies together. That was the first experience I had. I was like, "oh my God, I thought these people would be so serious. But they're actually quite fun". And it's so welcoming and inclusive in terms of different age groups, different ethnicities and countries across Europe. And I really love that
[00:04:14] Tim Brewer: Now you said before you're a trustee. Can you explain that for everyone at home? Like, how's the conference run?
[00:04:19] Anissa Oukhiar: Really we are in essence, we are a charity that serves the community of org design practitioners and scholars with the intent of really advancing the field. That is our North Star. The annual conference, once a year, two days, somewhere in Europe, really is the heartbeat of our community. It's basically what makes the blood flow through our system. Without the conference it just affects everything that we do, 'cause we do loads of different activities. We have a book club, we have an online platform, we have an accredited masterclass. We have loads of different things that people can tap into and use as a resource beyond connecting with each other, with members of the community. But what fuels all of that is that annual conference. This is like the moment that it just all of a sudden injector sparkles energy and it has a buzz for weeks and months, even afterwards.
What I'm looking at here, all these beautiful cards is actually a product of Damian visiting our conference last year, feeling totally inspired and coming up with this brilliant product. So that just gives you an idea of what the intent is behind it and how it's set up.
[00:05:29] Damian Bramanis: Yeah. One of the one of the things that a listener might be thinking right now is they work maybe on the periphery of org design they're interested in org design, maybe as a career that they're moving into or maybe as problems that they're facing in their organization right now.
What's a good way for someone like that to reach out and start to get involved with the EODF? How could they learn more, how could they start to become involved and experience a little bit of the hippie culture and the fun that is EODF?
[00:05:57] Anissa Oukhiar: So I would definitely say join some of the local or even annual events. But like a, an accessible way of joining is on the website. We really try to be accessible, so it's only 50 euros a year to become a member and access our platform. And we do that on purpose so that it remains an accessible price also for students or being inclusive of everyone in society really, and not exclude people.
And yeah for that membership you get to access the platform, you get to connect with people. But a simple thing is we have a monthly newsletter and just signing up for the newsletter. And for that you don't have to be a member and just checking out what's in the newsletter. There's content, so members of our community have thought provoking pieces that they produce because at the end of the day, we are a forum, the F of forum in the EODF. So really connecting with that, perhaps joining a book club session. We have global conversations off the back of articles that are selected by a curatorial board. So there's online, in a virtual space, there's a lot that you can engage with and tap into to just connect with people through content that is out there.
But definitely I would just say for me, how I got to know EODF. If I may share that for a moment, is that I was working with my colleague, my old colleague back in the Netherlands, and he, at the time was the chair of EODF and every month or so he would share in the team like, oh yeah, I was there and there this weekend he was always somewhere jetsetting across Europe, having board meetings and going to different events for EODF. And it really intrigued me because the context and ecosystem I was working with was very Dutch focused and I loved the notion of having a bit more of an international space and community to learn also, more beyond just the Dutch ecosystem and context. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's just my appetite was to broaden that scope a little bit. And through that I just pulled, I just kept pulling for, oh, can you tell me more about this event? Oh, can I join to the conference? And so since I think 2016, 2017, my first conference was in Dortmund, and it was incredible and provoking each other, but with respect being, clear on the content but really kind to the person and there is this spirit and energy that the group sort of carries and I was very drawn to that because at the beginning of my career, I felt so insecure about what actually, what do I know? I like, I've, I have all these degrees, but what do I truly know? I have zero experience. And not feeling judged for that, but being welcomed and having access to mentors that I could always jump on a call with someone who had loads of experience and never felt stupid for doing so. For me, that was such an important thing.
I never aspired to become the chair or anything to be honest with you. But I guess what happened over the years was that I naturally pulled for more things and I was naturally drawn into topics and into, being committed and really caring about the community and really making sure that we don't lose that spirit and wanting to also contribute in building that and maintaining it and growing it and feeding it. It was a natural thing where when I, four years ago, joined the board, yeah, a year later I was asked, do you wanna be the co-chair to become the chair? And I was like, no, I'm not gonna do that because I'm not stupid man. I don't have time for this. I have a full-time job. I have other things to do.
So I really thought about it for three or four months or so. And what was a tipping point for me was, there's loads of people who came before me who are all have similar characteristics in terms of demographics. It was quite homogeneous. The majority of the people who've been leading EODF have been white male, some middle aged but the point of the matter is that for me, I don't like tokenism, right? But I do think that representation is important. So as like being a woman, but also being a millennial and also being a person of color and also being Muslim, for me, I was like, you know what?
If I can just, if I can inspire another person to then just join EODF or just join the community or have a certain role in it, how cool would that be? Because I'm totally respected for being myself as everyone is in the community. So after a few months of thinking about that, I thought actually game on, let's do it. It's really scary. It sounds very scary. I have no idea what I would be doing, but let's just go for it. There's people who support and it'll be fine. So it was never planned. It's just this community has a beautiful spirit to it and yeah, there's just, there is something, there's a magic, I dunno how to describe it.
[00:11:04] Tim Brewer: Yeah,
[00:11:04] Damian Bramanis: we've got eight questions about org design. We debated them hotly we did have ,72, but we're down to eight. So we're just looking a quick answer for each of the eight. Question number one, how would you explain org design to somebody at a dinner party?
[00:11:22] Anissa Oukhiar: I can tell you how I explain it to a 10-year-old. Yes. Which is you go to a doctor when you think there's something wrong with you, and the doctor usually fixes something, but you go to a physiotherapist when you need some sort of coaching and you need to go and do it yourself.
So it's like being the physiotherapist of an organization, where you work together with the organization to get rid of whatever symptoms they have. That was what the 10-year-old understood.
[00:11:47] Damian Bramanis: Yeah.
[00:11:48] Anissa Oukhiar: If it will be an adult, it will be aligning the strategic intent of the organization with how it should be organized. So not just not an org chart, not job descriptions, that's like the end state, but really aligning the strategic intent.
[00:12:02] Tim Brewer: if you could give yourself any job title, what would it be?
[00:12:06] Anissa Oukhiar: Entertainer.
[00:12:08] Damian Bramanis: Entertainer?
[00:12:10] Anissa Oukhiar: Yeah. And the reason why is that honestly, I feel like part of the way that I work and let people collaborate to make decisions that will help them align to their strategy is coming up with ways of working and workshops that will make people laugh, that will entertain people that will put them on the edge of their seat "oh my gosh, she just said that", but there's a psychology behind it, and then people all of a sudden, at the end of the day, build a new organization.
[00:12:40] Tim Brewer: You talked about symptoms that organizations faced before and what do you think the big symptoms or challenges organizations are facing that org design can help resolve?
[00:12:53] Anissa Oukhiar: Yeah, I think let's just hit it with top three then. Like top three, I would say duplication of effort, siloed thinking. Which in a way overlaps a little bit. But siloed in a way of from a literature perspective, it's called sub-optimization, which basically means that, let's say you are a team, you're like you think like you're doing a great job because you hit all the metrics and all of that, but then downstream or upstream, other people are struggling or the customer's even like complaining about it, but the root cause is not being solved. And meanwhile, you as a team are like celebrating 'cause you're, you attained all the metrics. So there's misalignment within the organization. The third one is, if people just don't behave in the way that you want them to behave, something is then not working in the way you are set up. So what behaviors are you rewarding? What is structurally set up rewarding behavior that, for example, encourages people to be selfish, and entertain their own objectives that will then discourage people to collaborate because it's competition. So yeah, there's a lot of that I think as well.
[00:14:02] Damian Bramanis: How do you measure the success of org design?
[00:14:05] Anissa Oukhiar: I'm still learning that. Yeah. I think it's a really, it's a big intangible. And it's as one of the provocateurs, so the people who provoked our thinking by sharing an open story about his experience, shared earlier today, is that it's a constant thing. It's not something that you can plan like a Kanban style or a waterfall project where it starts and it ends, there, there's just a continuum, and this is where it overlaps with organizational development. So in terms of success, it's like, if you're not clear what car you're designing, for example, it's yeah, just gimme a bloody car. But you're coming up with with a Ferrari, when you actually need a bus or something. Like basic example. Both are vehicles but different purpose, right? Different maintenance also. If you're not maintaining it in the right way, or if it constantly requires maintenance, like every week you need to go and do the servicing, then surely something is wrong.
But if it's like a once a year thing or twice a year, it's like a, there's a cadence, there's a heartbeat or drumbeat, it's not constant. Then I would say it's probably successful, but it's never a hundred percent finished. I think that's a myth, to be really honest with you.
[00:15:28] Damian Bramanis: What's an org design hack or a clever solution that you've seen implemented?
[00:15:33] Anissa Oukhiar: Oh, just getting people in a room. Getting people in a room and just fire questions at them and just get out of their way. People are are clever. And we need to trust that. So Just get people in a room.
[00:15:49] Damian Bramanis: What's the most effective way to get buy-in?
[00:15:54] Anissa Oukhiar: Again, get people in a room because if you are part of the process and it makes sense, then that helps. And even if you're not, if you have an organization of thousands of people, then it's impossible to get everyone in the room. But there's ways in which you can engage with other people without it being an email and saying, "hi. So next week your job's going to change. And by the way half of your team has been made redundant". I think there's so many different ways that you can engage with people, that it is a two-sided street and that it is genuine. And if I may, I saw also one of these cards that said the uncertainty this really resonates with what I just said is it's also a way of, how can you train people and let people get comfortable to deal with ambiguity. Because it's really uncomfortable. I find it super uncomfortable.
[00:16:42] Damian Bramanis: Yeah. And if you've got agency or if you've got accountability, then yeah, you feel ownership, you feel that you are in that uncertainty as well.
[00:16:49] Anissa Oukhiar: But sometimes you just need to go through that together.
[00:16:53] Tim Brewer: Reorging every three years or a continuous org design culture, where do you think org design is going? Is it, where's the pendulum swinging to?
[00:17:05] Anissa Oukhiar: Gosh. If I'm honest with you, you, I think it, it's swinging to the first one. I think it's always not always, it has predominantly been there in the, less than 10 years of experience that I have. So I think you'd have to ask one of the historians here with three or four decades of experience, which we have them and we have them here. So answering your question from my humble experience, I think again, the point of uncertainty and trying to figure out and navigate what AI could do for organizations it steers it a little bit in that direction, the first point that the first continuum you raised, and then the other side of the continuum is more what I think we should be doing basically I think there needs to be, it's like you go to the gym, right? You train and you, I think it's about people in the organization training and gaining the confidence that they can problem solve together without necessarily external people. It's weird to say that 'cause I'm an external consultant but I think then I've done a great job if they're like self-sufficient.
[00:18:12] Tim Brewer: we are really stoked that we've been able to have you on the podcast. We learn so much and we know it's super helpful for all the people that listen in and read the content as well. So thank you for joining us on the Org Design Podcast, Damian trusted co-host. Sadly, Amy couldn't make it here to Milan, so we're missing her in the podcast today. Not that you're being a great co-host.
[00:18:35] Damian Bramanis: Thanks, Tim. No worries. You've been great too. Thanks. I do as best I can.
[00:18:39] Anissa Oukhiar: I actually have a question for you, by the way. Oh. Oh. How is it to be co-hosts? 'Cause I have my own podcast and I do that stuff on my own, but how is it for you guys to do it together?
[00:18:48] Damian Bramanis: Oh, it's really good because the things I don't like to do, someone else can do it And all, me and Tim and Amy and Rory all have different, different skills and different interests. So it's actually it's really good that we can, yeah, we can share the load and rotate focus on the things that we love each.
[00:19:03] Anissa Oukhiar: Nice. Very cool. Yeah. Cool. Thanks guys. Yeah. Thank you. Thank
[00:19:07] Damian Bramanis: you so much.
[00:19:08] Tim Brewer: See you everyone.
[00:19:08] Damian Bramanis: been great to chat with you. Bye.
[00:19:11] Anissa Oukhiar: Ciao.
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Functionly empowers organizations to design their structures effectively by providing tools that align strategic intent with operational execution. By facilitating collaboration among team members and utilizing a clear framework, Functionly helps organizations identify duplications, break down silos, and promote behaviors that foster teamwork. With a focus on continuous adaptation, Functionly equips leaders with the resources to navigate uncertainty and drive meaningful change within their organizations, ensuring that every member feels engaged and accountable in the process.​