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Learn more about Abby Allen and her experience in Org Design on her expert page
In this episode of the Org Design Podcast, hosts Tim Brewer and Amy Springer welcome Abby Allen, an organizational development practitioner with over 20 years of experience.
Abby shares her insights on the evolving nature of organizational design, emphasizing the importance of understanding both people and systems in order to foster effective collaboration within organizations. The discussion covers the impact of artificial intelligence on organizational structures, the challenges of leading large organizations, and the necessity of having a systems-oriented approach to solve complex problems.
Abby highlights the significance of asking the right questions to uncover underlying issues within organizations, rather than merely focusing on surface-level solutions. She encourages leaders to embrace collaboration, not just as a function, but as a culture within their teams.
[00:00:00] Tim Brewer: Welcome to the Org Design Podcast. We're recording live at the org design festival in twin cities. Today with us, we have Abby Allen, no middle name and joining me as a podcast co-host, Amy Springer. Amy, welcome to the show again.
[00:00:18] Amy Springer: G'day everyone.
[00:00:19] Tim Brewer: Abby Allen. What do you do?
[00:00:21] Abby Allen: What do I do? I struggle with that question. This week has helped bring some clarity and perspective on that, of connecting, people and process and systems. And that's a long answer. So I think the short answer is, I help people design ways of engaging with one another, with systems. There's not a neat, clean word for that, but I'm a organizational development practitioner technically, but I think that means a lot of things and people don't know all the things in it. So it's a hard question to answer.
[00:00:53] Amy Springer: So, Abby, do you do all of that inside one company or are you part of a consulting firm?
[00:00:59] Abby Allen: For the last not quite four years, I've been inside one company, very large. For the first time in 20 plus years, before that I did it as a consultant, externally for public sector, private, not for profit, small, massive, global, local.
It's been an interesting four years to shift the perspective. That is just totally the same work, same problems, same opportunities, but totally different perspective from the inside.
[00:01:28] Amy Springer: What does large mean? How large is that organization?
[00:01:32] Abby Allen: 25, 000 employees around the globe, mostly in the US. 20 plus major departments who are my clients as an organizational practitioner. 90 years old, so rich history and habits that need evolving, but it's fun.
[00:01:53] Tim Brewer: Okay. I'm going to go some rapid fire questions.
[00:01:57] Abby Allen: All right.
[00:01:57] Tim Brewer: Top down or bottom up?
[00:01:59] Abby Allen: Both.
[00:02:01] Tim Brewer: On a scale of one to 10, how impactful do you think AI is going to be to how organizations structure?
[00:02:10] Abby Allen: Structure. Gosh, that's a tough one. One to 10.
[00:02:14] Tim Brewer: 10 being high impact, one being: what AI?
[00:02:18] Abby Allen: By when?
[00:02:20] Tim Brewer: Next ten years.
[00:02:20] Abby Allen: Next ten years. Seven and a half? I like halves? I don't know, but
[00:02:26] Tim Brewer: 7. 77,
[00:02:28] Abby Allen: 7. 75 But I think because as we heard the other day we don't yet have the language. We don't know, what we don't know.
Which ironically is what this job is. It's helping people uncover the things, I don't know if it's blind spots, but they don't know, but we literally don't know yet. And so, when I think about the ways we are using it, I'm like, oh, it'll really help us. Like it can scan position descriptions for duplicative roles.
It can help me, look at data on productivity much faster than my team and I can. So then I'm like, oh yeah, a lot. But then when I really think about oh, but the structure itself and the thoughtful, the intellect behind it, and the why? Oh, I don't know. It's a fascinating question.
[00:03:11] Tim Brewer: How much of your time do you spend doing org design versus the other parts of the pure OD discipline?
[00:03:18] Abby Allen: So that's a hard question, back to the last four years versus the 24 years before that they're very different answers. It's a capability that I was asked to build and create in our organization because they just had I'm going to call it the softer, but like the softer OD or the more point in time or team to team like team focus and not the systems focus in my entire career has been on the system focus of things And again, whether your clients know that or not, like they don't need to know that's the like logic I'm bringing but it's they just know that has helps them get the outcomes They're looking for, and so not as much as I'd like to in the last four years, and I'm really excited that I've had the privilege to build the team You bring many of them here to build their capabilities and skills introduce our OD or practitioner side to the concepts as well, and really clarify their roles of which half is Focused on the org design and systems view in which ones are focused on client delivery client service of whatever the need may be.
[00:04:18] Tim Brewer: Yeah one of the things we're seeing more and more, and you confirmed it just in the last four years, is standing up an org design capability or an org design function within bigger organizations. We have a pretty broad base of listeners, but I know that a lot of people internally in big organizations still listen to the podcast or read the content. What advice would you have for them if they're on part of that journey where they've been asked, Hey, look, could you spend more of your time doing org design or maybe even to stand up a small team of people to assist managers within the business do that function. What would your advice be now having that experience starting something from scratch in a bigger traditional organization?
[00:04:59] Abby Allen: At first I would say celebrate like the fact that they're asking you to do that is like a huge win, don't let that don't let that go like really and then tuck that away for the tough days because they still they ask the right question, they got you there and even though when it gets tough, Hold on to that because that in and of itself is huge, and then the advice to them I think it's almost like the generic challenge of consultants, that it's a double edged sword. On one hand, it's good, it's never our decision. It's your design, you help them see the value, the pros, the cons, but it's never your decision. And so there's a part of that's Oh, that's good. And then there's other sides. It's never your decision. Like they don't have to, take all this into account. And so my advice would be, know that is everyone's truth in our role and in our function. That's just part of the territory, and don't take that personally. Still find a way to just have, in that system's view, still have just a little impact, make one little ripple, and you're doing your job. Hold on to that too, and keep going.
[00:05:59] Amy Springer: If one of those leaders who's been given your options, whether it's your business or, someone like you somewhere else, and they've been presented with these options, what would you wish on all of these different leaders? What would you love them to have that they're going to be open minded, listen to the options, what do our future leaders need basically?
[00:06:20] Abby Allen: I'm going to pull on my educational background. I went to Case Western and studied under David Cooper Ryder. And the appreciative inquiry lens on that is in a, I do bring it to all my work is that you move in the direction of the questions you ask.
So if you look for problems, you're going to find problems. If you look for what's working well and how to scale and capitalize on it, you're going to find that. And so my advice to them is whatever it is, make sure you're asking the generative question and the helpful question. Assuming positive intent. But being intentional about that, like leaders need the skills to step back, look at the big picture, and make sure they're asking the right question for the organization, not just their part of it, or themselves, or their team. I think is the biggest advice that it's hard to do. It's what makes leadership hard, is putting the whole above the parts.
[00:07:14] Tim Brewer: Abby, the audience for the podcast is mainly leaders in organizations that are looking for content or a solution to some kind of problem that they suspect is org design related. Some of them won't even really know what org design is. When you're talking to friends that might be in a leadership position in a company or just been hired into a role, what's your advice to them as it relates to org design? What's the practical advice you've after all of your experience when they're thinking, man, I think I've got an org design problem. And you're like, Okay. Okay.
[00:07:45] Abby Allen: It's interesting because they, that's not normally what they come with.
They come asking for something. Oh, I need conflict. I need communications. And I'm like, this might be a role clarity problem. And like we get there. When they do come to me "Oh, it's a structure thing". Like they just want to draw the boxes and lines and that's not where you start. And when they do, like my advice is if that's all you want to do you don't. You don't need a professional's help because we're going to ask so many more questions. We're really going to help you get to the root cause.
And then again, being that it's a, this is a systems approach and not everybody understands that and that's okay, but it's it's never one thing. And so we're going to help you think critically and solve all the components of it. And I think that's the value. So come open minded, listen for the, "yes, I can help you do that and this thing" and they all go hand in hand because I'm like I just want to cherry pick the stuff and like sometimes we can make that work or sequence it in a way to meet like their desires and oftentimes again, like you don't know what you don't know. And just in a couple conversations with us really helps you have these aha moments of " Oh, I didn't think about that. You're right. Can we look at that too?" And you're like, yep, we can help you do that. So it's I don't want people to think org design and just org charts. I want them to know and the advice is that we can help you really think through the complexity of our modern world, that tech and AI and job changes and industry and economy, like that all impacts the complexity of the work we do no matter the industry.
And sometimes you just need help people outside of your sphere and your space to help you think different or look from a different angle. And that's the real value we have. So leverage those resources to their maximum, not just a skinny little lane.
[00:09:30] Amy Springer: Okay. So I'm the friend that didn't know to come for you to you for org design help. I'm back here in my office struggling. You mentioned conflict. What are some other things I might be experiencing or seeing? That make me wish I knew I had you as a friend.
[00:09:47] Abby Allen: Yeah. The like hot topic for us right now is collaboration. And it's people like, "Oh, we collaborate. I meet with people all the time. I'm a great, I'm a great collaborator." And then when I really talk through what collaboration looks like in the skills they need and just the way they have to change in how you dialogue, like asking questions and seeking understanding and " wait, let me just check. Did I hear you?". That's collaborating, not calling a meeting. "Hey, I have this great idea. It is going to solve all these problems. Here's my data. Let me show you the charts" and selling people on your idea and getting their buy in is not collaborating. And so I think that gets at your question of you didn't know what we could do is help people, just individuals, whether it's departments, different mindsets, really meet and work together in new ways. And they're like "you're just here to solve it for me". I'm not actually going to solve anything for you. I'm just going to be your guide to navigating all these minefields and quicksands that you didn't even know were out there in a objective way to help you to stay together, help you collaborate and find a shared solution, not just selling each other on parts of it and like frankensteining together some "collaborative" answer.
[00:10:59] Tim Brewer: We need like a collaboration word like voluntold. Oh, I got voluntold to do it. We need like a collaboration word that's not really collaboration. I just can't think of it off the top of my head.
Abby, thank you so much for joining us on the Org Design Podcast.
Amy Springer, thanks for joining us. As well as you lead the podcast and the
[00:11:18] Abby Allen: do you collaborate on it together?
[00:11:20] Tim Brewer: We do. She really tells me what to do. I get voluntold all the time essentially, but I'm totally okay.
[00:11:26] Amy Springer: I collaborate it.
[00:11:27] Tim Brewer: Yeah, you're like, even though I'm like, can you just voluntell me and she's no, we're collaborating. Abby, have you seen our Org Design Oracle cards yet?
[00:11:36] Abby Allen: I have seen them, the flyer on them. I haven't seen or touched the cards.
[00:11:40] Tim Brewer: Actually you talked about before, you've got to dig into some of the things that happen within an organization. And we've done a org design specific, so focussed just on the types of things in and around org design. And so there's all different topics. There's a fair bit more order to it, which we've gotten the pack. For those of you that are online, we've got a pack here that we're going to leave with Abby. The org design Oracle cards. So just a really practical way. Tell me in the real world, facilitate conversations with managers that aren't thinking in the mind space of org design, all the problems that they have. This is a great intuition builder conversation starter. If you're into those kinds of,
[00:12:15] Abby Allen: you asked me if I had questions for you guys, like, how did you design these? Like we're all designers at heart, right? Like how did you design these?
[00:12:20] Tim Brewer: That's a really good question.
[00:12:22] Amy Springer: Tim's co founder Damian is just one of those wonderfully unique human beings. Mathematics degree.
[00:12:33] Tim Brewer: Pure mathematics.
[00:12:33] Amy Springer: Pure mathematics. But he's here helping us solve org design problems. And he just loves tarot cards. And he had this wonderful idea. How could I apply that to org design? And then he augmented the process. Word of the week. So he came up with the concepts, came up with the cards, and then also created the artwork himself using AI.
[00:12:55] Abby Allen: Oh my gosh.
[00:12:57] Tim Brewer: Separately, we also did a facilitator output from the product that we built. So you can get that out in the real world, pin it up around the walls of a room and collaborate. Because that's where a lot of that information sharing, dialogue, discovery, and collaboration happen is in the real world. It's not happening in a system that says they're collaborative or in a bit of software. It happens in the real world.
[00:13:18] Abby Allen: Can I just go all like tangent on you for a minute? Because you're like, Oh, he's a mathematics guy. But like technically the connection between complexity theory and math and complexity systems theory that all our work is based on, are like the same concept. They're just numbers in like solution, like what you can do, what you can compute. And we're like, How do people really work in the real world? Their behaviors, their motivations? On the surface you think mathematics is so different. When I was a kid I've been, I don't like any of that. And I'm like, oh my gosh. It's pretty related just on the people side.
[00:13:51] Tim Brewer: Yeah, there's definitely pattern matching and mathematics are super related. And I think also, I mean for the cards, one of the things Damian, not all mathematicians are very intuitive, but Damien's also a very personable person, and very good intuition. So I think a lot of org design brings together and talking to podcast guests, including yourself, you can walk in and be personal. You can also walk in and mathematically think about the complexity that's going on in the room. Think about incentive design and how a financial structure might be guiding someone's behavior a strange direction. But at the same time, there's an interpersonal issue which might be, so you've got to intuit the art and science of org design when you're doing your job.
[00:14:32] Abby Allen: So what would you say you'd do then? See, I'm going to turn that question back to the beginning. What would you, what do you do? All of those things, like, how would you package up? Because you just explained what we all do, but like, how, what label would you put on that?
[00:14:44] Tim Brewer: Org design.
[00:14:45] Abby Allen: Org design.
[00:14:45] Tim Brewer: Yeah, I think org design. And so org design, I think is a very, there's a lot of ways to tackle that. So a lot of things can be org design. And then
[00:14:53] Abby Allen: there's a lot of assumptions around it.
[00:14:55] Tim Brewer: Absolutely. But I think that what is interesting is that as leaders get more and more busy and change isn't something that they can sit down and strategize every five years, they're actually, that's right. Five months, three months. They're every quarter, they're like, all right, we've got to make a series of changes again. How do we structure organizations that can cope with that when they're expecting at the end of a transformational change for it to be over? And they get, it's like, they're straight into another one. It just, it burns people out. I think the second thing is leaders get busier and they don't have the time to stop and, Sit with our people and say, "Hey, what are you doing? Have a think about it. Intuit". And so I think my hunch is what we'll see is a lot more people like yourselves, being given the time and space in separate roles within organizations to partner with leadership to do org design, which traditionally you probably would have ended up a leader in the business that is like really good at structuring an org and being a leader.
But instead you'll get to do that kind of across an organization and I think that's playing out in industry, I'm sure. Because you've built a function in a large business, you're seeing a lot more of that in other companies. I hadn't never seen before and we're seeing new functions pop up all the time in org design.
[00:16:10] Abby Allen: And you just help me like connect a dot to is like in the past it was the consultants speak, like they came in and out and because it's less like you said, start and stop and like this is it, and then a while, like it, cause it is a constant evolution, adapting ecosystem, you need to be a part of that system to see where the natural resources are drying up over here and how we I don't know that we've relied, and again, it was, 20 plus years of my bread and butter externally. I don't know how, if that's sustainable, like you said, the pace at which it's changing the pace at which we have to just constantly roll with it, you might need to be in this. I hadn't thought about it, but I think you might need to be in the system. 10 years from now.
[00:16:48] Tim Brewer: Yeah. To really, if you want to get a really good laugh from a business audience, just tell them who's looking forward to the next reorganization, and no one will put their hand up and they'll all laugh
[00:16:58] Abby Allen: and they'll roll their eyes.
[00:16:59] Tim Brewer: No. Serious. We are like one of the big institutional consulting firms, we are gonna get them in and they're gonna do the most expensive.
[00:17:04] Abby Allen: Yeah.
[00:17:05] Tim Brewer: We're gonna get them to do the most expensive PowerPoint deck. Anyone has ever purchased maybe a binder if they're still printing, we'll get a binder as well.
[00:17:13] Abby Allen: and we will just put it on the shelf and never open it again
[00:17:15] Tim Brewer: and I think that with the speed of change or the continuous change that has been foisted on everyone as a result of external factors and internal change or the implications of external change on a whole industry. Say this is like cascading issues that happen with such advances like technology and AI is coming faster than we've seen any other advances.
I think that it, how do, how leaders, practitioners, providers solve that problem is going to be really interesting. But my
[00:17:49] Abby Allen: That's the other big thing. People are like I'm just, is it my job? Is it my lane? I'm going to go do it. And we're like, and I think that's where the org designers come in. It's like I'm going to get you all in a room and we're all going to solve this because we'll actually solve it right, and we're quicker, faster.
[00:18:03] Tim Brewer: Or having an organization that's equipped has the right org design culture to solve those problems. Sometimes getting good enough to solve them themselves.
[00:18:12] Abby Allen: I mean, that's a measure of success. Do you need me anymore? No. Great. Yeah. That's a way my team's they're not calling. We're not getting the request. I'm like, that's a good thing. Yeah.
[00:18:20] Amy Springer: That's another, another feature of an org designer. Chat with other people, open mindedness, systems thinking, problem solving, the willingness to make yourself redundant. Yes. That's a real way to celebrate. That's the job. Yeah.
[00:18:32] Abby Allen: I've left you stronger and you don't need me. Awesome. Call me in a couple of years and let me know how it's going.
[00:18:38] Tim Brewer: Yeah and the last thing I think that's really important is to do it in a human way. Organizations are full of humans, and the faster things change and the more crazy they get, the more it can hurt, malign, impact, I don't want to call it human capital because it just sounds so unpersonal, but all the people that are working hard, day in and day out in the organizations that we support and serve. So how do we do all of that faster than we ever have when it is so high stakes, but also look after the people in those changes, I think is really important.
[00:19:13] Abby Allen: Yeah.
[00:19:14] Tim Brewer: Awesome.
[00:19:15] Abby Allen: This has been fun. Thanks.
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